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	Comments on: Gates at the Top of the Range	</title>
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		<title>
		By: bruechips		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3837</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bruechips]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3837</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also, after reading the police report, the officer at least claims that he attempted to leave BEFORE arresting Gates for disorderly conduct, but was pursued by Gates, who continued to yell at him. It sounds like there were a number of witnesses who could potentially corroborate this claim. The more I learn about this, the more I think that Gates is a little bit of a nut job, who could have realized the possibility of a publicity stunt the moment the officer showed up and didn&#039;t want to pass up the opportunity. If his experience becomes the focus of a documentary about police abuse in America, as has been reported, I might throw up in my mouth a little bit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, after reading the police report, the officer at least claims that he attempted to leave BEFORE arresting Gates for disorderly conduct, but was pursued by Gates, who continued to yell at him. It sounds like there were a number of witnesses who could potentially corroborate this claim. The more I learn about this, the more I think that Gates is a little bit of a nut job, who could have realized the possibility of a publicity stunt the moment the officer showed up and didn&#8217;t want to pass up the opportunity. If his experience becomes the focus of a documentary about police abuse in America, as has been reported, I might throw up in my mouth a little bit.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: bruechips		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3834</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bruechips]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3834</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also I think it&#039;s kind of an open question whether this is good or bad for civil rights overall. On the whole, I&#039;d say it&#039;s bad. You might say that running into the nuts this once will make police think twice about intimidating people. But it&#039;s not too hard to &quot;read&quot; this hand and figure out that Gates, living in a nice neighborhood and probably dressed well, was not some hoodlum. Basically it tells police that once you figure out that you&#039;re talking to a college professor, then back off. If not, then continue as planned. 

Second is the effect of public perception of racial profiling and intimidation by police. At least a large share of people will look at this incident and say, &quot;THIS is racial profiling? A guy gets seen breaking into a house, the police come to ask questions, and he starts yelling at the police? Seems fair that the police would react to being yelled at when they&#039;re just trying to ascertain the facts of the situation, which on their face clearly warrant investigation. If this is what passes for police brutality, then there must not be a real problem.&quot; That is, the publicization of THIS incident, which is in the opinion of many people, including me, is not egregious behavior on the part of the police, obscures all the instances of true police misconduct that occur on an everyday basis.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also I think it&#8217;s kind of an open question whether this is good or bad for civil rights overall. On the whole, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s bad. You might say that running into the nuts this once will make police think twice about intimidating people. But it&#8217;s not too hard to &#8220;read&#8221; this hand and figure out that Gates, living in a nice neighborhood and probably dressed well, was not some hoodlum. Basically it tells police that once you figure out that you&#8217;re talking to a college professor, then back off. If not, then continue as planned. </p>
<p>Second is the effect of public perception of racial profiling and intimidation by police. At least a large share of people will look at this incident and say, &#8220;THIS is racial profiling? A guy gets seen breaking into a house, the police come to ask questions, and he starts yelling at the police? Seems fair that the police would react to being yelled at when they&#8217;re just trying to ascertain the facts of the situation, which on their face clearly warrant investigation. If this is what passes for police brutality, then there must not be a real problem.&#8221; That is, the publicization of THIS incident, which is in the opinion of many people, including me, is not egregious behavior on the part of the police, obscures all the instances of true police misconduct that occur on an everyday basis.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3833</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3833</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a great story, Bob! Illustrates the point quite well. 

And hat&#039;s off to you for risking life and limb for such an important cause. I imagine that activism on the part of white volunteers such as yourself was important for similar reasons to Gates&#039; own. I know there were those among you who experienced the most severe consequences, but I would guess there were also times when the presence of white college students deterred actions that, sad to say, might not have been so controversial were they to have been inflicted only upon blacks?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great story, Bob! Illustrates the point quite well. </p>
<p>And hat&#8217;s off to you for risking life and limb for such an important cause. I imagine that activism on the part of white volunteers such as yourself was important for similar reasons to Gates&#8217; own. I know there were those among you who experienced the most severe consequences, but I would guess there were also times when the presence of white college students deterred actions that, sad to say, might not have been so controversial were they to have been inflicted only upon blacks?</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3832</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 19:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3832</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comment, brue, and very good point as usual. I&#039;m sure my overall tone was unfair to the police. I do recognize that they have a difficult and often legitimate job to do. I&#039;m no expert myself, but I imagine that intimidation is often a legitimate and essential tactic in their work. 

That said, in the absence of legal consequences and public criticism, they have considerable incentive to maximize their intimidation factor. There is considerable empirical evidence to suggest that this is in fact what will happen when rights are not vigorously upheld. 

What I mean to say here is that formal legal rights are far from being absolute protections. They are themselves only one tool in a back-and-forth between police and policed, one whose realization is far from automatic. There is every reason to expect that police offers will continue to push the envelope, and thus it is imperative that those few who are in a position to push back do so. Despite the alarmist cries of the far right, we are far from the point where legitimate police tactics are deterred for fear of public outrage or legal consequences.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment, brue, and very good point as usual. I&#8217;m sure my overall tone was unfair to the police. I do recognize that they have a difficult and often legitimate job to do. I&#8217;m no expert myself, but I imagine that intimidation is often a legitimate and essential tactic in their work. </p>
<p>That said, in the absence of legal consequences and public criticism, they have considerable incentive to maximize their intimidation factor. There is considerable empirical evidence to suggest that this is in fact what will happen when rights are not vigorously upheld. </p>
<p>What I mean to say here is that formal legal rights are far from being absolute protections. They are themselves only one tool in a back-and-forth between police and policed, one whose realization is far from automatic. There is every reason to expect that police offers will continue to push the envelope, and thus it is imperative that those few who are in a position to push back do so. Despite the alarmist cries of the far right, we are far from the point where legitimate police tactics are deterred for fear of public outrage or legal consequences.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: bruechips		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3831</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bruechips]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:16:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3831</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Interesting analysis. I think you&#039;re basically right, but don&#039;t forget that the police are also playing a &quot;game&quot; against legitimate criminals, and it isn&#039;t always obvious to them which &quot;type&quot; they are dealing with (criminal or upstanding citizen). Of course both types have rights that shouldn&#039;t be abused, but in terms of portraying an overall image of intimidation, it seems like that would be useful in deterring and punishing crime. I have very little experience with or knowledge of crime enforcement tactics, so I&#039;m not an expert, just making a suggestion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting analysis. I think you&#8217;re basically right, but don&#8217;t forget that the police are also playing a &#8220;game&#8221; against legitimate criminals, and it isn&#8217;t always obvious to them which &#8220;type&#8221; they are dealing with (criminal or upstanding citizen). Of course both types have rights that shouldn&#8217;t be abused, but in terms of portraying an overall image of intimidation, it seems like that would be useful in deterring and punishing crime. I have very little experience with or knowledge of crime enforcement tactics, so I&#8217;m not an expert, just making a suggestion.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Bob Gilman		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3830</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Gilman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3830</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very cogent analysis and analogy. The general liberal line of thought treats the equality of mankind as a natural given and inequalities as unnatural and unjust. On the contrary, the general equality of mankind is rather a modern ideal than anything observable in history. It&#039;s an ideal I very much share, but to ignore the historical divisions and struggles among men is a kind of closing the eyes, and that is no way to work toward a goal.

I was one of the white college volunteers who went to Mississippi in the summer of 1964 as part of the &quot;Mississippi Summer,&quot; a broad range civil rights effort in that deepest of the deep south states. At the very start of that summer, three workers -- James Chaney, a local Mississippi black, Mickey Schwerner, a Northern white volunteer who&#039;d been in the state awhile, and Andy Goodman, one of the fresh volunteers from NYC, disappeared in Neshoba County. Some time later, the Neshoba County sheriff, his deputy, and some others were arrested for the abduction and murder of the three. During the training camp for volunteers I remember overhearing three black guys, Mississippi movement veterans, talking among themselves about the volunteers they were training. &quot;They ask me, &#039;When you&#039;re in the middle of a crowd of angry crackers, how can you remain nonviolent?&#039; Shit, man, what else can you be?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cogent analysis and analogy. The general liberal line of thought treats the equality of mankind as a natural given and inequalities as unnatural and unjust. On the contrary, the general equality of mankind is rather a modern ideal than anything observable in history. It&#8217;s an ideal I very much share, but to ignore the historical divisions and struggles among men is a kind of closing the eyes, and that is no way to work toward a goal.</p>
<p>I was one of the white college volunteers who went to Mississippi in the summer of 1964 as part of the &#8220;Mississippi Summer,&#8221; a broad range civil rights effort in that deepest of the deep south states. At the very start of that summer, three workers &#8212; James Chaney, a local Mississippi black, Mickey Schwerner, a Northern white volunteer who&#8217;d been in the state awhile, and Andy Goodman, one of the fresh volunteers from NYC, disappeared in Neshoba County. Some time later, the Neshoba County sheriff, his deputy, and some others were arrested for the abduction and murder of the three. During the training camp for volunteers I remember overhearing three black guys, Mississippi movement veterans, talking among themselves about the volunteers they were training. &#8220;They ask me, &#8216;When you&#8217;re in the middle of a crowd of angry crackers, how can you remain nonviolent?&#8217; Shit, man, what else can you be?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: ThePokerDaily		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2009/07/gates-at-the-top-of-the-range/#comment-3829</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ThePokerDaily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=3199#comment-3829</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nice analysis...Gates is a great mind and if Lawrence Summers hadn&#039;t been such a tool, Harvard would still have the African-American studies dream team together.  *Sigh*]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice analysis&#8230;Gates is a great mind and if Lawrence Summers hadn&#8217;t been such a tool, Harvard would still have the African-American studies dream team together.  *Sigh*</p>
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