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	<title>
	Comments on: Sources of Value in a Bet (Revised)	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/</link>
	<description>Weekly poker podcast hosted by Andrew Brokos and Nate Meyvis featuring interviews with famous and behind-the-scenes figures from the poker world as well as an in-depth poker strategy segment.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 04:44:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6148</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 04:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6148</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6147&quot;&gt;Stevenson&lt;/a&gt;.

I enjoy it. I&#039;ve read a few books that I heard about on there, but they also tend to talk about news and trends in the publishing industry, which is kind of interesting. As you&#039;d expect, they&#039;re pretty snooty towards the folks who top the bestseller lists (Grisham, King, etc.).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6147">Stevenson</a>.</p>
<p>I enjoy it. I&#8217;ve read a few books that I heard about on there, but they also tend to talk about news and trends in the publishing industry, which is kind of interesting. As you&#8217;d expect, they&#8217;re pretty snooty towards the folks who top the bestseller lists (Grisham, King, etc.).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stevenson		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6147</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stevenson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Sep 2010 04:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6147</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6133&quot;&gt;foucault&lt;/a&gt;.

Is that any good? I&#039;d like to add some more podcasts to my workout playlists.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6133">foucault</a>.</p>
<p>Is that any good? I&#8217;d like to add some more podcasts to my workout playlists.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6133</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6133</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6124&quot;&gt;Lin Sherman&lt;/a&gt;.

Heh, I don&#039;t actually read the NYT book review, but I do listen to their weekly podcast!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6124">Lin Sherman</a>.</p>
<p>Heh, I don&#8217;t actually read the NYT book review, but I do listen to their weekly podcast!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lin Sherman		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6132</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lin Sherman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 13:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6132</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6127&quot;&gt;Nomanr&lt;/a&gt;.

But how would we know he&#039;s smarter than us if he didn&#039;t use &quot;prolix&quot; and mention Horkheimer in the same post?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6127">Nomanr</a>.</p>
<p>But how would we know he&#8217;s smarter than us if he didn&#8217;t use &#8220;prolix&#8221; and mention Horkheimer in the same post?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nomanr		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6127</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nomanr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 05:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6127</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6120&quot;&gt;Stevenson&lt;/a&gt;.

Perhaps you should not spend so much time on arcane words like &quot;prolix&quot; and revisit the definition of &quot;approve&quot;.  There didn&#039;t need to be explicit irony in the usage since it was a simple (and funny) random gag.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6120">Stevenson</a>.</p>
<p>Perhaps you should not spend so much time on arcane words like &#8220;prolix&#8221; and revisit the definition of &#8220;approve&#8221;.  There didn&#8217;t need to be explicit irony in the usage since it was a simple (and funny) random gag.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lin Sherman		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6124</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lin Sherman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 03:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6124</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6116&quot;&gt;foucault&lt;/a&gt;.

You need to spend more time reading New York Times book reviews.

On second thought, maybe not.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6116">foucault</a>.</p>
<p>You need to spend more time reading New York Times book reviews.</p>
<p>On second thought, maybe not.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lin Sherman		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6123</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lin Sherman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 03:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6123</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not persuaded and never have been that #12 is a legitimate reason to bet/raise, let alone worthy of its own category. If it must be retained, I&#039;d lump it in with #10 (which I&#039;m not crazy about either, but I long ago gave up trying to persuade people that you&#039;re way better off playing against the image you have rather than trying to create one you don&#039;t have.)

I&#039;m also for keeping position and isolation distinct. If you want the list to apply to any type of poker and not just NLHE, then I think you definitely have to put position-improvement bets/raises in their own category.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not persuaded and never have been that #12 is a legitimate reason to bet/raise, let alone worthy of its own category. If it must be retained, I&#8217;d lump it in with #10 (which I&#8217;m not crazy about either, but I long ago gave up trying to persuade people that you&#8217;re way better off playing against the image you have rather than trying to create one you don&#8217;t have.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also for keeping position and isolation distinct. If you want the list to apply to any type of poker and not just NLHE, then I think you definitely have to put position-improvement bets/raises in their own category.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lin Sherman		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6122</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lin Sherman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 02:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6122</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6119&quot;&gt;foucault&lt;/a&gt;.

There&#039;s going to be a lot of overlap. Don&#039;t make yourself crazy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6119">foucault</a>.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s going to be a lot of overlap. Don&#8217;t make yourself crazy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stevenson		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6120</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stevenson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 02:00:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6120</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6116&quot;&gt;foucault&lt;/a&gt;.

I didn’t read the post, I was just responding to someone’s comment. Now that I have read it, I don’t detect any irony in your usage, but whatev. Was Horkheimer too unwieldy?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6116">foucault</a>.</p>
<p>I didn’t read the post, I was just responding to someone’s comment. Now that I have read it, I don’t detect any irony in your usage, but whatev. Was Horkheimer too unwieldy?</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6119</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6119</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6106&quot;&gt;Chris M&lt;/a&gt;.

Oh yes certainly they are distinct as written. I&#039;m just wondering whether they ought to be written that way- if they aren&#039;t actually the same thing: improving your implied odds by folding out competition. So this would be counting not the immediate equity that you gain in the pot (that&#039;s bluffing and protection) but rather the implied equity that you gain by improving your position and/or isolating a weak player.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6106">Chris M</a>.</p>
<p>Oh yes certainly they are distinct as written. I&#8217;m just wondering whether they ought to be written that way- if they aren&#8217;t actually the same thing: improving your implied odds by folding out competition. So this would be counting not the immediate equity that you gain in the pot (that&#8217;s bluffing and protection) but rather the implied equity that you gain by improving your position and/or isolating a weak player.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6118</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6118</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6109&quot;&gt;Andy&lt;/a&gt;.

I think your addition might fit the &quot;pot sweetening&quot; category. At least it is some combination of value betting, setting up a multi-barrel bluff, and pot sweetening.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6109">Andy</a>.</p>
<p>I think your addition might fit the &#8220;pot sweetening&#8221; category. At least it is some combination of value betting, setting up a multi-barrel bluff, and pot sweetening.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foucault		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6116</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foucault]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6116</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6115&quot;&gt;Stevenson&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;m afraid I wasn&#039;t smart enough not to have to google &quot;prolix&quot;. I hoped it was obvious that &quot;misunderestimate&quot; was deliberate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6115">Stevenson</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I wasn&#8217;t smart enough not to have to google &#8220;prolix&#8221;. I hoped it was obvious that &#8220;misunderestimate&#8221; was deliberate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stevenson		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6115</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stevenson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 00:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6115</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think the list is prolix and needlessly trivial. I wouldn&#039;t bust his balls for his use of misunderestimate though; his name is Foucault so we can be pretty sure he&#039;s brilliant.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the list is prolix and needlessly trivial. I wouldn&#8217;t bust his balls for his use of misunderestimate though; his name is Foucault so we can be pretty sure he&#8217;s brilliant.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andy		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6109</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6109</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;8. Position- To drive out players who will have position on you later in the hand&quot;
AND
8. Position- To force players to play a lot of hands out of position.
Example
In case of HUNL when I bet in  position I usually do not try to drive player out.
I force player to play out of position.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;8. Position- To drive out players who will have position on you later in the hand&#8221;<br />
AND<br />
8. Position- To force players to play a lot of hands out of position.<br />
Example<br />
In case of HUNL when I bet in  position I usually do not try to drive player out.<br />
I force player to play out of position.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris M		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6106</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6106</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By the above definitions isolation and position are different.

If a fish limps MP and we raise OTB, we are isolating the pot heads up with this opponent. We have the BTN, so we are not forcing out players who have position on us.

This is &#039;isolation&#039; not &#039;position&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the above definitions isolation and position are different.</p>
<p>If a fish limps MP and we raise OTB, we are isolating the pot heads up with this opponent. We have the BTN, so we are not forcing out players who have position on us.</p>
<p>This is &#8216;isolation&#8217; not &#8216;position&#8217;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andy		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6096</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6096</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;be able write an equation for the value of a bet as a function of some combination of factors&quot;
In my opinion you should conseptualize the factors as vectors rather than scalars.
I will say such exercise help you simplify your equation.
Example:
In some situations I conceptualize protection and deception as vectors with opposite direction and unknown lengths.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;be able write an equation for the value of a bet as a function of some combination of factors&#8221;<br />
In my opinion you should conseptualize the factors as vectors rather than scalars.<br />
I will say such exercise help you simplify your equation.<br />
Example:<br />
In some situations I conceptualize protection and deception as vectors with opposite direction and unknown lengths.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Michael		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6091</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6091</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[For balancing/metagame (this is similar or identical to #5).

To earn rakeback/become a SuperNova Elite/earn Truly Free Poker training points/increase one&#039;s fame (i.e., to earn value off the game not in the game).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For balancing/metagame (this is similar or identical to #5).</p>
<p>To earn rakeback/become a SuperNova Elite/earn Truly Free Poker training points/increase one&#8217;s fame (i.e., to earn value off the game not in the game).</p>
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		<title>
		By: THETA Poker		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6090</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[THETA Poker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6090</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062; I’m not 100% sure about Secrecy. I feel like it’s getting at something similar to Image and may not warrant its own category.

I agree that Secrecy is just a subset of Image. You don&#039;t want people to know what cards you just played that way only because you don&#039;t want that image.


&#062; Likewise I’m starting to wonder if Isolation isn’t too similar to position. In both cases you are trying to increase your implied odds on future streets by preventing other players from getting in your way. Does anyone else see what I’m getting at there?

They&#039;re similar, but you may want to isolate against a weaker player with or without position.  (Against a too-tight player, you may even be totally happy to be out of position so you can bluff him out before he&#039;s committed more chips.)

The list looks very good now, although arranging them into related or connected categories (e.g., Bluffing with Barreling) would help.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; I’m not 100% sure about Secrecy. I feel like it’s getting at something similar to Image and may not warrant its own category.</p>
<p>I agree that Secrecy is just a subset of Image. You don&#8217;t want people to know what cards you just played that way only because you don&#8217;t want that image.</p>
<p>&gt; Likewise I’m starting to wonder if Isolation isn’t too similar to position. In both cases you are trying to increase your implied odds on future streets by preventing other players from getting in your way. Does anyone else see what I’m getting at there?</p>
<p>They&#8217;re similar, but you may want to isolate against a weaker player with or without position.  (Against a too-tight player, you may even be totally happy to be out of position so you can bluff him out before he&#8217;s committed more chips.)</p>
<p>The list looks very good now, although arranging them into related or connected categories (e.g., Bluffing with Barreling) would help.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nomanr		</title>
		<link>https://www.thinkingpoker.net/2010/08/sources-of-value-in-a-bet-revised/#comment-6089</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nomanr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkingpoker.net/?p=5783#comment-6089</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I approve of you usage of misunderestimate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I approve of you usage of misunderestimate.</p>
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			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
