Mike and Adam managed to get a 35-minute interview with Chief Operating Officer of the heretofore tight-lipped Tokwiro Enterprises, Paul Leggett, on this week’s 2+2 Pokercast. The subject, of course, was the recent cheating scandal at Ultimate Bet. I imagine these kinds of interviews, where the interviewer needs to press the subject hard for information without alienating him, can be tricky, but I thought the 2+2 hosts did a great job. In fact this was probably the most interesting of their shows I’ve heard. Here are a few things in particular I found interesting:
1. Cheating at Ultimate Bet- Ultimate Bet’s press release carefully avoided the word “cheating”, instead using the phrase “unfair play”. Mike and Adam resolved to press Leggett to use the word cheating, but surprisingly he employed it readily and without prompting.
2. Refunds- Leggett also referred many times to “refunding” money that was stolen from players. I’m really surprised by this choice of words, because it seems to imply that Tokwiro is returning money they have rather than compensating affected players out of their own pockets, which is what they claim is happening. I find it very strange that they don’t make a bigger deal out of the fact that they are doing this. I mean, if they were actually taking millions of dollars from their own coffers to replace money that they didn’t steal, you’d think they’d jump up and down about what an amazing thing it is they are doing for their players. But Leggett constantly refers to it as a “refund” and could not sound more dispassionate when he insists, “We’re very upset that someone was able to do this on our site, to our players.”
3. Stolen From UB?- Leggett repeatedly refers to money stolen “from our players, from our site” as though money were taken from them as well. I’m pretty sure he actually means that it was stolen through or using UB rather than from UB. It’s like he’s trying to portray his company as a victim in all of this as well. I guess if their story is true, then UB is a victim, because their reputation is shot to hell and they are on the hook for all the money.
4. Coughing- Leggett clears his throat constantly, pretty much any time he’s asked a tough question. It’s hard to say, though, whether he’s nervous because he’s lying or nervous because he’s getting grilled.
5. Absolute Poker Cheating Deal- Apparently, Tokwiro, which also owns AP, struck a deal with the perpetrators of the cheating on that site. In exchange for a detailed explanation of how the cheating was carried out, they agreed not to release the names of the individuals or attempt to prosecute the crime. This is new information and certainly inconsistent with the allegation that that cheating was carried out by owners of the site.
6. Kahnawake Gaming Commission Fine- Leggett confirms that the KGC fined Tokwiro $500,000 for the AP incident in addition to the cost of the audit that was performed. I really wish Mike and Adam had asked what the KGC was doing with this money. Since when does the regulator get to issue arbitrary fines and then keep the money for themselves? Yet as far as I know the KGC hasn’t said or done anything publicly with that money for the affected players.
7. Joe Norton Not So Corrupt- This made me laugh out loud. After Leggett cites the KGC fine, Mike and Adam ask if the KGC is really so independent, given that former Kahnawake Grand Chief Joe Norton is the sole owner of Tokwiro Enterprises. Leggett, who not surprisingly seems to have a close working relationship with Norton, says that Joe didn’t found Tokwiro until he was out of public office. He then adds that this is no more corrupt than a US Senator going to work for a lobbyist after he leaves office. That’s a real high moral standard they’re holding themselves to….
8. Return Visit? After the interview, Mike and Adam decide to keep inviting Leggett back every few months in an attempt to hold him to his timeline and insure that his promsies are kept. This is a great idea, and I hope they’ll stick with it.